I’m Not Ready To Attack Jonathan Yet, But He Misruled Us - Kenneth Gbagi

Exclusive interview with Olorogun Kenneth Gbagi, a former deputy minister under ex president Jonathan.

Lawyer, criminologist and former Minister of State for Education under President Goodluck Jonathan, Olorogun Kenneth Gbagi, spoke with Sunday Oguntola on the new administration and where Jonathan missed the mark. Excerpts:

What’s your take on the state of the nation?

I believe that a nation that went down to the level we got to under the last administration will find it difficult to get out of it hale and hearty. I believe Dr Goodluck Jonathan is, in fact, a lucky man that President Muhammadu Buhari won the election. We had reached the end of the road under him.

That we had a change of government, itself, had given us a breather. What the breather means is that we have a better hope than before. A lot of Nigerians now expect something as against when we had no expectation. What we are looking for now is how President Buhari will get us out of the messy situation we are in.

They have started arresting some criminals. What we had in the past were inconclusive arrests and investigations. We must make people account for what they did. Our security agencies must arrest looters. Instead of just taking money from them, we must take the current arrests to a logical conclusion.

You were part of the Jonathan’s years. Are you dissociating yourself from the failures of that administration?

I became a minister in that government by a lot of interferences. For instance, when I refused to be a minister, no less a person than Theophilus Danjuma was contacted to prevail on me. I accepted the appointment and worked for Nigeria. The duty of Jonathan was to appoint, mine was to work. I did my work unblemished.

However, there were things in government that went on while I was there and after I had left that I dissociate myself from. I’m dissociating myself from the infractions of the government.

I want Nigerians to know that there are people in this country who have made money and had wealth before going into government.

The former president himself said several times that he didn’t know I was that wealthy before I joined his government.

The point is I’m not directing any attack at anybody but what I’m saying is that the country was misruled and if Jonathan was my father or brother, I will say so. I won’t keep quiet when things are bad. You will recall I told Jonathan two months before the elections that there was no way he could come back.

Do you think the steps Buhari have taken so far are taking us back to the right tracks?

As somebody in the business world, I will say that Buhari himself might not have done something but the fact that you cannot carry $100,000 to the president for any favour has put a different orientation into our heads that it is no longer business as usual. It is clear that at over 70, Buhari will never get to a stage where he would have any other interest at heart than the good of Nigeria.

But some have alleged that 95 percent of his appointments are from a section of a country where he comes from. What’s your take on that?

There are appointments that the President has to make under constitutional conditionality but there are some that are strictly under his prerogative. We can compare him with other former presidents of Nigeria and see if he had done anything different. You cannot appoint a Minister of Niger Delta from Lagos. It is not possible because the constitution has taken care of that. But if you talk about some appointments, it is based on what the President wants.

For the first time in the nation’s history, the president and the head of the electoral commission are from the same region. Will this augur well?

I can confirm to you that Amina Zakari will never be chairperson of INEC. A government’s business cannot be left in a vacuum. When the last chairman was leaving, somebody necessarily must take over in an acting capacity. What we have is a transition to a different government.

In a country where the President is inundated with many criminals, he has to take his time to appoint the right person for an important agency as INEC.

But I can assure you that Buhari is too sensible to make Amina the substantive INEC chairperson no matter how competent she is. The history of Nigeria has made it that the President and the INEC chair always come from different regions. Amina is only bidding time in INEC. She will go when Buhari finds a competent person.

What about the appointment of the Department of State Services (DSS) Director-General, a man from the President’s village, more or less a cousin?

Nigerians must learn to remove pettiness from our reactions. Given the sensitive nature of this country, in terms of coups and counter-coups, it has become a practice to appoint someone you can trust as DSS chief.

Let me start by saying that Daura is a wonderful and honest man. He has not been found wanting or accused of corruption. We have had several instances of Presidents only entrusting security to persons they are comfortable with.

The former DG SSS, Sunday Areh, was dismissed for allegedly plotting a coup. He was a Lt. Col when he was dismissed from the military. He was brought back by former President Obasanjo. Areh was like his son. He became DG DSS.

Lt. General Patrick Azazi was appointed as Director of Military Intelligence, then National Security Adviser (NSA) because former President Jonathan believed in him. Azazi was from Jonathan’s region. Every major appointment in the security forces then were coordinated by Azazi. That was what the former President was comfortable with.

The point is that today people feel comfortable with certain persons. Nigeria has become so distrustful that you need persons you can trust for certain roles. So, what is wrong with Daura who left the service voluntarily because he couldn’t cope with the level of corruption?

So, the President has not done anything wrong by picking a man who left the service voluntarily. We have to be careful with many of the things said in the social media because most of the activists are sponsored and paid by certain vested interests.

Are you not bothered that Buhari is taking eternity to form a cabinet?

Let me tell you that because of the level of rottenness in the polity, you have to be extra careful with some appointments. I know that Nigerians can be impatient. We are becoming restless. What Buhari is going through is as a result of the distrust we have for our leaders.

Do you agree with Buhari’s limiting his probe of past administrations to Jonathan’s government?

Buhari has no business going to probe Obasanjo regime. It will just be an unnecessary and irresponsible distraction, because whatever Obasanjo did, Yar’ Adua came, and I can tell you I worked with Yar’ Adua. I was then the Chairman of the Legal Aid Council of Nigeria and in my meetings with Yar’ Adua he would have probed Obasanjo.

I can tell you that without making mistakes. And Obasanjo knows himself that Yar’ Adua would have probed him. If Yar’ Adua did not probe him, Jonathtan came and did not probe him then that government is gone and gone.

Whatever Obasanjo did in his government obviously will have effect on Yar’ Adua/Jonathan’s government and if they felt that there was nothing wrong and nothing to probe that was the business of that government.

But whatever happened in Jonathan’s government has direct and immediate bearing and consequences on this government. It is a back- to- back government. Buhari has a duty to probe Jonathan. And in any case what is wrong with that? I was a minister before, what is wrong in probing me? Why is anybody afraid of Buhari’s probe? What is causing anxiety over the issue of Daura now? Why are they afraid? If your hands are clean, why are you afraid of probe? I have properties all over Nigeria and abroad. I have every cheque that I have received in my life as a human being. So, why is anybody afraid of probe?

Are you still open to returning to politics?

It destroyed all my businesses. I can play an advisory role. I can play roles that are not directly opposed to my successes, my business successes in life. I don’t think I want to be involved. I am too old now. At 53, I should bow out.

What then happens to the infatuation you have of ruling Delta, which you are passionate about?

I am still passionate. We have a governor who is my friend, who we all started the party together. Let us see him succeed instead of heating up the polity of Delta State. I am very certain that is what we need to do right now.

But as God wishes, if He calls you, you cannot reject. But I am saying that I won’t go to anybody; that I have never done before to submit my CV to beg for appointment that I want to work for you.

You didn’t lobby to be a minister?

Never! I did not. EK Clark was the one who insisted that I must be a minister. He did everything possible and I said I will not be. When it became so bad he spoke to my friend Theophilus Danjuma to persuade me.

Some persons are of the opinion that you are attacking Jonathan because he removed you as a minister?

It is very childish for anybody to make such statement. Jonathan himself feels guilty that he will have to leave politics for nothing. We held that administration and made it work without any interest. Jonathan has not given me one kobo in my life; I was the one who spent my personal money and I am not attacking him.

If you see all my discussions, I have not attacked him. If I have to do so, I have enough reasons to do so because I have enough facts to do so but I have not gotten to that stage yet.